Tova interviews Christianne Porta, LMFT, on what defines bullying and how we can help children handle it.
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TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:00)
Welcome to wellspring on the air where professional Christian counselors share practical life and Bible insights. Why? Because hearts and minds matter. We’re glad you joined our show today to hear from our host, Tova Kreps, president of wellspring counseling in Miami. Tova is a licensed therapist with many years of experience as a Christian counselor. Tova teaches, writes, and consults and life. FM is pleased to have wellspring counseling, restoring hearts and minds in our community. Welcome to wellspring on the air. I’m Tova co founder and president of wellspring counseling. And today’s program on wellspring on the air is about bullying. We’re going to talk about the symptoms of it, the causes of it, the remedies of it, what to do about it. And we’re not
Speaker 2: (00:41)
just going to talk about kids today. We’re going to talk about bullying in the workplace, bullying in the adult world, because let’s face it, it doesn’t stop necessarily. So with me today is wellspring therapists. Christianne Porto, welcome Kristianne. Thank you. Glad to have you here today. I’m happy to be here. So Christiana is a licensed therapist with wellspring. So tell us a little more about yourself. Well, I’m also a mother of two boys. Matthew went to mass and wife of Leon for 12 years. I am also blessed to be part of this wellspring family as a licensed marriage and family therapist and an adjunct professor at Miami Dade college as well. Okay, good. I know you’re about to give a talk on this, which is why I’m publicly at a school. Right. And I, you and Beth as sees one of our other therapists and I know you’re about to do that.
Speaker 2: (01:27)
So I’ve asked you to come in and just share with us what you’ve been studying and learning and what you want to teach about bullying. I know you have some past experience even going into schools and teaching kids about social skills and being able to prevent bullying from an early age. Yes, absolutely. The importance of being able to teach children at an early age to understand their feelings and recognize and start developing their empathy towards others is what’s important to prevent bullying. Okay. So it can be stopped at all stages, uh, even before what my empowering our kids to be confident and able to stand up to it. But let’s start with some of the negatives, which is that approximately 160,000 school children a day, not a year, but a day. Stay home from school due to fear of bullying. That’s about 15% of all absences.
Speaker 2: (02:16)
That’s an amazing statistic. That is very scary. It really is. It says this happens a lot. It happens to lots of kids in lots of places and often and it’s so disturbing that they really don’t want to have to go face it. And I’m sure that happens in the workplace too. People just kind of don’t want to go to work sometimes and maybe they can’t change jobs and it just feels so bad they don’t want to be there. Yeah. And a lot of times they mistaken it for depression and anxiety in other areas and they don’t realize that it is the tension and the violence that they’re experiencing in the workplace. And when we spent so much time at work or at school, and it’s not a safe environment, there are ramifications to our bodies and to our minds. That’s really true. So we just want to avoid it and we might actually be depressed or might actually also be anxious because of it.
Speaker 2: (03:07)
Those will be part of the symptoms, right? Absolutely. So let’s just start off. So what’s the difference between bullying and someone who’s just in a bad mood or having a temper tantrum or something like that? What’s the difference? So bullying, most researchers use the definition that was developed by the Norwegian psychologist, dr Dan [inaudible]. He States that a person is being bullied when he or she is exposed repeatedly over time to negative actions on part of one or more. Other students always in his associates establish three criterias when labeling the behavior as bullying. It has to be aggressive behavior with intentional harm doing it also has to be repeatedly done over time. And the interpersonal relationship has to be characterized with an imbalance of power. So that could be a physical imbalance of power. So one is significantly taller, larger than the other person, or a power in terms of social status.
Speaker 2: (04:06)
So one is more popular than the other. Okay. Let’s back up on some of those. The, the first criteria again was what the first criteria is aggressive behavior. So it’s not, I threw the book because I was, I was angry. It was, I threw the book because I want to scare you. So it has that, that tension to harm, to cause threat and effect on the other person, an affect on the other person. So there could be somebody who’s just literally out of control themselves and is aggressive, but it really isn’t about the other people. It might be someone with some mental health issues. That could be, yeah. Or it could be, yeah. Um, you could have a child that’s having difficulties managing their emotions and could throw things around but not intentionally to harm or scare or threaten the people around him. OK. So, and then go back to the second criteria was these second of harm.
Speaker 2: (05:05)
The other ones, the second criteria was repeatedly over time. So it’s not a one time event. This is something that happens over and over and over again. It’s a pattern. It’s a pattern, a pattern of that power differential, which was the third thing into the pattern of I’m going to have power over you by, by tearing harm, by scaring you. By intimidating you. Yeah. Okay. All right, well that’s good. So what are the different types of bullying? There are different types of bullying in schools. You see a lot of overt violence, which is the ones it’s easy to see, right? So physical harm, a punch, a push or a verbal attack onto someone. The covert violence is the one that is the hardest to see because it is intentionally meant to be hidden and it’s not obvious to the person that is receiving it. And so it leaves the person in doubt and to a certain sense confused it.
Speaker 2: (06:04)
Crazy making, I’m not even sure this is happening. Yeah. Like not really understanding if they are receiving it the way that it was intentionally done and so that doubt sets into the person and that’s where the power and control begins. This is, you could say sarcasm in forms of sarcasm or exclusion. No, we don’t want you to be part of our group. Or it could be name calling with double meanings. So yeah, you’re the winner or you’re the cool guy, aren’t you? Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I can hear that in the workplace as well as in not our workplace by the way. We have great work, but I can imagine that in the workplace as being very similar, excluding making sure. So the covert might be somebody going behind everyone’s back and talking badly about somebody, yes, let’s not have them come because you know, they have these issues or because this, this, this.
Speaker 2: (06:58)
And so they didn’t even know that they have been bullied to be excluded because there’s somebody who’s spreading that intentionally to keep them out. Is that an example? Absolutely. Absolutely. And so the exclusion part of it, rather than the victim understanding that it’s something someone else is influencing others on, they begin to internalize it, especially with children. But even us as adults are vulnerable to those insecurities. Yeah. What’s wrong with me? Why doesn’t anyone like me? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And mostly in in the middle school age where social adaptation is important and the sense of belonging. But those needs are our needs. We have across our lifetime, connecting is an innate need. We have, I don’t know that belonging is important. Also, you know in the workplace there is something called lateral bullying and vertical bullying. And so the lateral is when there’s coworkers on the same level of maybe status at work.
Speaker 2: (07:59)
And then you have the vertical, which is someone of position exerting power and control over the other person. And so this could be seen in ways that, let’s say they’ll have unrealistic expectations for deadlines for work and they’ll be excluding information from them to have them make mistakes in order to set them up to fail to set them up to fail. Exactly. That’s interesting. I don’t think I would’ve thought of that when could a teacher be a bully? Absolutely. Absolutely. And so it’s, you know, you say that and it’s a good segue into what industries are more vulnerable to the bullying. And studies have shown that industries where there is a close proximity to social interactions with others, so people that dedicate their time to caretaking and being in close relation to others of high stress, exposure to secondary victimization. For example, healthcare professionals, the healthcare industry in itself is vulnerable and has found bullying to be a prevalent and pervasive throughout their industry as well as social work.
Speaker 2: (09:12)
So sadly, sadly, yes, and the education system, particularly teachers, and this is due to their burnout. So burnout is when you have a person who has not been taking care of themselves and shows fatigue in their ability to connect with others. Are bullies primarily in schools because children are more vulnerable or why? Why do we always talk about it in schools as one of the main industries for children, for children, it became a relevant issue once the Columbine started then that the boys had written about the bullying that they had suffered throughout the school. But really it’s, it’s in the workplace as well and it’s as harmful to adults as it is to children. I think that hopefully people mature or out of some of that. So it is more common in children because they’re just learning social skills and how do I belong or not belong in that middle school age that’s so key on that belonging as well as power and asserting themselves and just trying on new behaviors.
Speaker 2: (10:18)
And so hopefully grownups grow out of some of those things. But obviously they don’t completely, you’re not everyone does, right? No, unfortunately emotional intelligence is what is being tied to understanding and recognizing the bullying and being able to prevent it is developing the emotional intelligence, which you could be the chronological age of a 30 year old, but have the emotional intelligence of a six year old. Yeah, that that happens. It really does. Well, I just want to comment on the fact that this is a prevalent problem and that, that we really do need to address it. Um, after our break, let’s talk about some of the causes of it and how to fix it and some of those things. But those of you who are just joining in, we’re talking about bullying on wellspring, on the air. And with me today, I have Christie Yan porta, who’s one of our therapists.
Speaker 2: (11:08)
And we have another statistic here that they estimate that 17% of kids report having been bullied in school, that’s nearly two in 10 children. So that’s a pretty, pretty powerful statistic. Um, and in kid’s behavior, it seems to last about only about 37 seconds. But it’s interesting that if somebody intervenes in those first six to eight seconds, a bystander who just says, Hey, cut it out. Or some little little stop measure that over half the time they can stop that bullying from happening. So, so it’s just a quick little thing that can happen. But if it’s a pattern, we know it’s bullying. If it has the intent of putting people down and putting them in their place and having that differential, making them feel bad about themselves, then it falls in that bullying category. So we’re going to come back after this break with Christina and talk a little bit more about bullying.
Speaker 2: (11:56)
We’ll be right back. Wellspring now offers professional Christian counseling at six locations in Dade County. Therapists are now taking clients at two new locations. One at crossbridge Miami Springs, and keep escaping for more information. (786) 573-7010 or wellspring miami.org for more information. Welcome back. This is Tova on wellspring on the air. And with me today, I have therapists from wellspring, Christianne porta, who is talking to us about bullying. If you miss the beginning of the show, please go to our website wellspring, miami.org and you can find the list of our programs. Or you can find us on your favorite podcasts like on iTunes or something, and called wellspring on the air. You can look by topic and this one will be on bullying. So if you’d like the rest of the show, go back and find it. But otherwise tune in. We’ve been talking about the difference between bullying and an anger.
Speaker 2: (12:48)
And it we’re saying that it needs to be repeated. It needs to have intent to harm and not just accidental harm. And Christine, and what was the third thing? Repeatedly over time, intent to harm and imbalance of power and an imbalance of power. There’s gotta be this power differential. Okay. And we also commented on the fact that it happens at workplaces and it can happen laterally and it can happen vertically with a boss that can happen at school too, obviously for children, which is what we think about it more often. Um, and it’s a big problem in the United States. Two out of 10 children probably have some sort of form of bullying in their, in their childhood. So, all right, let’s move on to what can we do to fix these bullying problems? What are some more of our solutions? Christianne there are two approaches in trying to get this bullying behavior under control.
Speaker 2: (13:37)
And so the first thing is that bullying is not a person. It is not a character trait. And I find that that is very important, that’s essential to communicate to everyone is that bullying is a behavior not a character trait. So you’re not a bully, you’re not a bully. You choose to bully and you are holding behavior is behavior good, good. And so that in that when we think about it as behavior, it is easier to change rather than a character trait, which is something that is in neat in us. Yeah. So when we see it as a behavior, we are able to intervene and we are also able to prevent it. And how do we prevent it? One of the preventative aspects of it is building emotional intelligence in children early on. So preschool age, that means that we’re talking about kids three, four, five and six years old.
Speaker 2: (14:31)
Helping them develop their emotional intelligence and understanding their emotions, what triggers their emotions, helping them regulate it. And then also being able to develop their sense of empathy. So being able to understand other people’s feelings. So we’re really saying that if you teach your kids, I feel sad when you do blank with an I feel statement. So to identify their own feelings and then how it connects to what just happened before or how they feel or respond right after. Yeah. And then in the same process they learned to identify other people’s feelings. Thus the empathy, empathy. So those are the basic social skills that will help with this. Yes, absolutely. So assertive communication, you know, teaching the child to be able to communicate what it is that they’re feeling and why. So we teach them that their feelings are their responsibility. So as adults, our feelings are our responsibility and what we choose to do with them is a choice to choice as well too.
Speaker 2: (15:31)
Exactly. And if we teach kids early on that they have a choice on what to do with their anger so they could draw, they could take some breathing exercises rather than hit their friend that broke their crayons. Okay. If we could teach them at such an early age, then that will create more of an impact for the lifelong process of that child preventative. Now unfortunately we have to have interventions and so when we talk about interventions, we, it’s important to bring in this emotional component and develop their empathy. Because empathy is a skill that is learned. It is not something that we are naturally born with. We need to have it modeled and we need to teach it for it to be developed. So we need to be trained to think of others and not just ourselves. Absolutely see the world from other people’s perspectives, not just from the inside of our eyes.
Speaker 2: (16:26)
We from the inside of our eyes. Yeah. Being able to step into someone else’s world and their shoes essentially and see the world through them and really step outside of ourselves and understand that we’re all interconnected and we’re all just part of this beautiful thing of humanity. Well, I want to backtrack for just a second on being the person, the bully versus that behavior. I think that it’s important that we comment on this here because the truth is almost all of us now, I’m sure there are a few saints among us. I don’t know who they are, but um, I’m sure there are few sayings among us who have never been a part of bullying. But the truth is most people are not a bully or a victim. They do bullying behavior sometimes in their lives and they are victims sometimes in their lives. And then there’s the third category, which is that bystander, it really takes three types of people to have bullying.
Speaker 2: (17:24)
Be a pattern. The person who is having bullying behavior, not a bully, but has the behavior, the person who’s the victim that day. Cause on another day they might be the bully, have the bullying behavior, thank you in another area. But then there’s the bystander who makes the audience that makes it possible. The audience that somehow tolerates it, ignores it or chimes in and it becomes a group thing. Right? Absolutely. Without an audience. The bully loses power. Yeah. Part of the goal is the getting the ring, being a ring later, having leadership and having leadership in it. And so you know, the leadership in this bullying behavior is negative. And so part of those interventions is providing this child or the person with alternatives on leadership. So helping them understand that they could use that power to something to be a positive influence. Children who, or adults who choose bullying behavior may very well be just perverting their giftedness of leadership.
Speaker 2: (18:22)
Absolutely. And we need to see it as that. Absolutely neat. Not Oh bad you, but, but Hey, where can we channel this in some way that makes you feel good and makes people around you feel good? And that that’s powerful too. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it, it helps them understand and takes the shame out of the child that has created the pain and grief onto others and gives them the opportunity to remediate. And a lot of times they’ll do ambassador programs at school and so they’ll put them to work with kids that are new and have them show them around. And so it develops this sense of leadership but in a more positive framework rather than negative. So what else did you have on the intervention side? On the intervention side, we also, you know, the empathy development. We talk about a lot about the emotional brain and the thinking brain.
Speaker 2: (19:17)
So we help them with the mindfulness and breathing activities to regulate themselves, essentially to be able to become better problem solvers. Okay, cool. Well, I think I’m going to take us in a little different direction from all. And then we’re going to, I want to come back to some of these other solutions, but I want to talk about some of the root causes because you know, as, as believers, we know their sin. And so the question is, is bullying sin or bullying behavior center? What causes these things? What makes somebody want to do this? And so I have a little list here and it’s kind of an interesting list because I do see that all of our human behavior that is sinful or that is negative is really just people trying to get their own needs met. But we do it the wrong way. So, and we use our giftedness.
Speaker 2: (20:06)
So the leader uses their giftedness to use bullying behavior. But, uh, we all sit in our giftedness and so, but we’re just trying to get our needs met. We’re just not doing it God’s way. So I was looking at this and I was thinking about, okay, what are the root causes of bullying? So one of the root causes then is really a passive aggressive revenge. So if I have been hurt by somebody or I’m angry at the world, or even my parents or at the bully down the street, I may take out that anger on somebody else because, and so the healthy thing would be the right thing. The God, I think it would be to go and confront the issue, the person that is causing this pain in my life, that person. But instead that person may not be safe. It might be my parent or a teacher I can’t talk to about it.
Speaker 2: (20:51)
And so I instead, I’m going to take that and direct that pain somewhere else. So I’m really getting my, I’m venting my anger or, and I’m getting revenge on the world or life or whatever on the fact that this pain is caused to me and I’m going to pass it on to somebody else. So, so again, I think, um, it’s a learned behavior. We can learn it from others and then pass it on or we can experience it. Hurt people, hurt people. Right? Absolutely. And you’re absolutely right when you speak about it in terms of projection, it’s a self defense mechanism. Perhaps the child or the person is suffering pain from a source that they can not confront and teaching them to handle and, and find another outlet. A more positive outlet is a, is essential to this point really is thinking too in terms of root things.
Speaker 2: (21:43)
I think, uh, God desires to have power and we have a need for power. It’s a good thing. We’re designed to have the power of God in our lives. The power of the Holy spirit. We’re designed to influence people towards goodness, um, and to be powerful influencers of our, our children, those around us. And so we’re designed to have power. And the opposite of that is helplessness, which is a very negative thing in our lives. But this is the temptation to sin piece of this is it’s a shortcut. It’s a cheater way to get power. So being a positive influence means I got to be a role model. I gotta work hard at it. It’s a lot of hard work to be a positive, powerful person, but it’s a, it’s a cheap thing where I can just have power because I put somebody else down.
Speaker 2: (22:24)
Instead of raising myself and then bringing somebody else up with me, I just can be up because they’re down. So if I make them feel stupid, I look smart. It’s just that it’s a cheating way to get power. Short, quick. I get my power fixed, but I don’t have to do the hard work. So in that sense, I see a, it is a root sin of just wanting a good thing. The cheat quick way. What do you think about that? I think that a lot of times they do act out of their emotional side of their brain and therefore because they’re in pain, this is what they continue to project on to those that are perceived to be more vulnerable than they are in essentially. It’s not so much that they’re more vulnerable, it’s that they are being threatened, so their perceived threat and fear paralyzes them.
Speaker 2: (23:13)
Well, I think if you think of putting somebody else down in order to feel better yourself, to put yourself up that route, insecurity. I mean, you didn’t even think of this in domestic violence. Domestic violence is clearly bullying behavior. And if you think of domestic violence, uh, along those lines, it’s generally comes from someone who’s very insecure. They may also have learned it in their childhood. They may also be projecting their pain on someone, but there, but in the end, because of that, they are very, very insecure. So I feel more secure if I can make you behave a certain way. So I know I have the power to make you move your feet. I know I have the power to influence you. If I can get you to be afraid, I have power. If I can get you to stay, I have power. And all of that is just to make up for insecurity and pain.
Speaker 2: (23:59)
And that insecurity and pain is that the root of that. And so I again, back to pulling interventions with this, the, the intervention is how do I help this person be secure? How do I help this person feel loved and, and heal that pain so that they can let go of bullying behavior. And instead really, as you said, you know, do PO positive things, we in ambassador, that kind of thing. Uh, any comments on that? I find that showing them love and treating them with the kindness that they should be treating others is a very powerful tool. Absolutely. It’s a very powerful tool because in demonstrating to them that they too are lovable and that they too are children of God. I find that, and statistics find that when we treat them with kindness, when they are shown that somebody believes in them and somebody believes in their power to change these behaviors that it is possible, then they can pass kindness on as well.
Speaker 2: (24:57)
Absolutely. I’m going to be that positive, you know, a couple of other routes. I think just wanting to belong to the tribe, even the scientific thing of survival of the fittest. We want to belong to a tribe. And, and so if there’s bullying going on and it’s like, Oh, I want to be on the bullies side because I sure [inaudible] well you don’t want to be on the outside, the in and out piece. And there’s a lot of additives, especially some of those early years in late elementary and middle school. I think, you know, we’ve talked about some of the other things, just the cruelty a at its worst of enjoying the pleasure of power over others and actually being cruel. I mean, what does make someone empathy will not solve that sin piece. You know, I can teach you to be empathetic, but if I actually like to be cruel, um, that’s a sin piece and it’s just nothing but a temptation for power, power the wrong way instead of power the right way.
Speaker 2: (25:43)
It’s just a temptation like other temptations in our lives. So yeah, by the way, Tovah on the part of, of being able to be part of the tribe and the need to belong and the need to be part of something larger than ourselves. It’s important to know that being the bystander witnessing or walking away from someone that is being bullied or from a situation where you are witnessing someone being bullied. It’s important to note that one of the preventative measures that we teach is empowering the bystanders to change that and to be able to break that. And we teach them different ways of handling that. So if they are gonna walk away, take the victim with them. So Hey, you know, so and so let’s just go, let’s, let’s go and just keep walking. And if they, they need help because the bully continues to follow them, then they can go to an administrator at the school to a teacher and see if works.
Speaker 2: (26:43)
And that takes courage because the risk for the bystander who intervenes is that they could become a victim too. But it’s courage that we want to encourage our kids to have that they can do that. And because they’re believers, because we’re behind them, helping them stand up for, for those who are victims. So let’s think of a few little verses here. For those who are attempted to bully. I think it’s no question that the Bible tells us that you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And there’s no commandment greater than that. And I’m loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves. And that includes the skills of learning to love yourself, which is what you’re talking about. If I can love myself, well, I can pass that on to others. But I w I need to be loving others. And this is not it. Ephesians four 29 says, let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth, but only such as, as good for building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear.
Speaker 2: (27:33)
So again, we’re, we’re encouraged to be people who are building up and not tearing down. And so there are a lot of other passages on this for bullies. Just learning that, that God does hold us accountable for those kinds of behaviors. And, and if we have evil intent against others, he holds us accountable. But he also forgives us. And, uh, we just have to repent and make some changes for the people who are receiving bullying. I think there’s some wonderful passages. Deuteronomy 31 six be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, right? Whoever them is for as the Lord your God who goes with you, he will not leave you or forsake you. Proverbs six 16 to 19, it says there are six things that the Lord hates. Seven that are an abomination to him. Haughty eyes aligned tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil and a false witness who breathes out lies and one who sows discord among brothers.
Speaker 2: (28:29)
I see bullying all over that passage. You know, God really hates that and he wants to defend it, pry he promises. Second, Timmy, they won seven. They did. We don’t have a spirit of fear, but of power and love and self control that we have choices and we can love even our enemies who are wiliness and to the bystanders. God tells us that we should rescue the weak and the needy. And then we should deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. That Psalm 82 four there’s lots more there. We hope you’ll come back and listen to more or find us on wellspring, miami.org hopefully we’ll hopefully find some resources there. Christine, any concluding statements you want to make today? I find that choosing to be kind and choosing to be courageous in helping that person that is sitting alone at lunch or you see is having a hard day. Sometimes just a simple compliment or a simple note, a Pat on the back perhaps makes a huge difference and so we can small differences that the in our lives that could create a greater impact on there, could build people up. It builds a kind look, a little inclusion, a question, a comment. Just attending to people just builds them up instead of tearing them down
