Lindsey and Wellspring therapist Yasamin discuss what attracts us to fear.
ON THE SHOW
Host: Lindsey Steffen, LMHC
wellspringmiami.org
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Yasamin Nosrati-Shamloo, RMHC, Bounce! Coordinator
wellspringmiami.org
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TRANSCRIPT
Yes, so in the spirit of October and the glorious fall we’re having here in Miami. Yeah, we’re going, we’re going to be talking a little bit about fear as we approach Halloween. I know a lot of parents and just people in general have different takes on Halloween and different opinions. So we’re going to talk about this spooky time of year and just break down fear a little bit. The emotional backdrop of it, what’s going on in our bodies and even our brains as we experience fear. Perfect. All right. So let’s go ahead and dive in. So the title of today’s show is, is fear fun?
Speaker 2: So let’s just start by defining fear. What is fear, Yasmine? Yeah. So fear is a fundamental, deeply wired reaction to protect organisms. So it’s humans and animals against perceived threats to their existence. So, you know, when you experience fear, there is that sense of danger. Yeah. Um, and like my life could be, you know, at risk here. Yeah. So that doesn’t sound too fun as you described that. No, it’s not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gets fun when we perceive that there’s no real danger. It’s just that thrill of excitement. Okay. Yeah. So there’s a big difference between that thrill and actual fear. Yeah. And interestingly enough, some of the main chemicals that contribute to the fight or flight response, which comes from fear, is also involved in other positive emotional States like happiness and excitement. So there’s kind of a difference between getting the rush and feeling completely terrorized.
Speaker 2: And that has to do with the context of how we experienced that fear. Okay. So tell me a little bit more about that. What might be a context where fear is fun in a context where it’s definitely not fun? Yeah, so we, we talk a lot about the brain. We know that there is the thinking brain and the emotional brain in there and communication at all times with each other. So a major factor in how we experience fear has to do with the context. So when our thinking brain gives feedback to our emotional brain and we perceive ourselves as being like in a safe space, our adrenaline kind of like goes down and we can, okay, we can kind of know that, okay, this isn’t really a dangerous situation. This is kind of fun or exciting and like kind of the excitement kicks in. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we’re not as, you know, terribly scared. Yeah. So I can have an example of this. Go for thoughts. So you know, Halloween now there’s haunted houses and stuff like that. So why do people, I don’t get afraid of haunted houses so much cause I know that it’s really a safe environment. Okay. So if there was like a ghost that pops up in the, in the haunted house, it’s like that adrenaline rush that you get like spooked a little bit and excited, but you know that you’re safe, you know that there is no, they’re not going to harm you. They’re fake. So it’s fun to you. Yeah. This is interesting then because I actually, I’m a scaredy cat with stuff like that, so we can analyze the differences, but I know it’s not real and I know I’m not going to be hurt, but I hate that suspense of waiting for something to jump out and I will, I’m terrorized.
Speaker 2: I can’t do it. So that maybe leads into your fears as being like you learned it as you were growing up kind of. And that’s something that kind of stuck with you. So it’s interesting because different people fear different things and there really has to do a lot with learning and how you grew up and even what your parents were afraid of too. We learned a lot through social context. So if your parents were one that would, you know, give a face when like my parents when I was near like in the kitchen, they would freak out. Like if I was near the stove or anything. So now as an adult I have a fear of cooking. Next there’s like there’s like fire or hot oil. Oh my goodness. I am like terribly like afraid. Okay. Of the kitchen. Wow. Because my parents just like kind of instilled that like this is a dangerous place.
Speaker 2: Get out of the kitchen. Yeah. Anxiety is a learned behavior. So their anxiety in the kitchen, you learn, Oh this is a lot
of bad stuff can happen here. Maybe or something really catastrophic can happen. Yeah. So a lot of it is learned, which you’re right. I’m thinking of my parents, they be scared. I don’t know where that comes from. But yeah, it’s kind of that, it’s the body response, so I can’t control that. My body freaks out even though my mind knows no one is actually going to hurt me right now. Right, exactly. Yeah. Which is different than if you were like in a parking lot at nights and you hear footsteps, you know, we’re kind of trained to be on alert and that’s definitely triggers, you know, a fight or flight response. But that’s true. Fear is actually possibly a threat to your wellbeing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that’s the difference. It’s perceiving threat. Okay. [inaudible] got it. Versus fun. All right, so you kind of, you went into this a little bit, but how do we tell the difference between fear and just that fun adrenaline rush? Yeah, it’s kind of difficult because sometimes our bodies automatically react because our brains alert us for the fear. But it’s really just analyzing your environment and seeing like, is this really something that is a threat to me or am I kind of making this up? Is this related to something I’m afraid of him from the past? So you kind of have to stop and think. You have to bring your logical brain in. Yeah. Instead of letting your emotional brain take over, logical brain needs to kick in. Okay. [inaudible] all right, so I kind of, I hear that fear and adrenaline rush. There’s definitely a difference, but maybe with fear, let’s talk about what are the good sides of fear?
Speaker 2: Like how is having a fear in dealing with it? How is that actually beneficial to us? Yeah. I think it comes maybe in conquering of the fear because that’s kind of courage. That’s bravery, you know, you perceive something dangerous or something scary to you and I used to get through. Yeah. And that just develops that perseverance and that courage to handle difficult things in the future or have a mastery over, you know, things that scare you. I love that. Yeah. It lets you have a sense of accomplishment that I was terrified to do this, but I worked up to it and then I did it. And I feel like that for our kids or even as adults, it teaches us that we’re capable, we’re competent, we can overcome challenging situations. So I think of public speaking, that’s like the number one fear I hate. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love the radio though on it really it takes out that fear factor of people just staring at you while you’re trying to form intelligent thoughts. Yep. But I think as I’ve kind of grown in my career, I have had to public speak a few times. I still don’t like it, but each time I’ve done it, it’s a little less terrifying. Yeah. And I do feel better that, okay, this is something that with practice I actually can maybe not master right now, but I can do it. And that does feel good that I’m not stuck or I’m not stagnate with that fear. So yeah, our biology behind fear and why we kind of freak out is cause we, we feel like we have a loss of control. We can’t control the situation, you know, we’re kind of in danger and we don’t know how to help ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So really that sense of control and knowing that you can handle the situation. Yeah. It helps you in the future with whatever you may be going through that could even be similar, yeah. To the threat that you’re experiencing. Like in the present. Yeah. So maybe, and I think with that you learn you can’t control everything. That’s kind of, that keeps some fear maybe. But also knowing you can control a lot of things. A lot of things. Yeah. And that lessens the fear that there’s kind of, we even as Christians, we know like God is in control. So ultimately that does bring some peace and sous some fears. But here on earth we can control certain circumstances and some we can’t. And so I think we’re blessed that we can rest in that, that he is all powerful. So what are some of the bad sides?
Speaker 2: The cons of experiencing fear? It’s definitely avoidance. Um, you know, you avoid maybe good things that come about. Like, um, I mean this is a simple thing, but roller coasters, like I was deathly afraid of roller coaster. Okay. And then after going on and kind of conquering that fear, there’s so much fun and I think that relates to life. Even with friendships. Yes. Maybe a fear of, um, being stabbed again in the back. You know, if you had a bad friendship that went wrong, um, there’s a fear there that you know, you, you, your life is going to be in danger almost with a new friend and you’re not going to be able to, um, form good friendships again. So it’s kind of that emotional danger even more than like physical, bodily harm. But yeah. You fear being hurt again or being shut down when you’re vulnerable.
Speaker 2: I think that’s a lot of people we see after a breakup, they’re heartbroken in there. They’re scared sometimes to enter again cause it’s like if it goes like it did before, I can’t do that again kind of thing. Yeah. And the truth is if you let the fear rule over you, you’re not going to get to experience good things that come from, you know, things that you’re avoiding because of the fear. Yeah. This kind of plays in just as counselors into phobias or different specific anxieties. So maybe once I got food poisoning and threw up and now it was at Chipotle or let’s say that’s never happened to me. I love to polling, but let’s say that happens. And then I can never eat at Chipola again, just because it happened one time and it’s kind of, it’s irrational. So that can happen at any restaurant I eat at some bacteria get in the food, but now I’m fixated that if I eat at Chipola I’ll get sick.
Speaker 2: And so that’s kind of a silly example, but it’s a real fear that pops up a lot. And I think in our counseling sessions, yeah. Um, yeah. For us it’s irrational. But really for the person it’s very real. Yes. And I think we have to be sensitive to that, that you probably did go through something that your life was in danger. You might have ended up in the hospital for something. Um, or just even very miserable. Yeah. Being sick and what have you. Maybe a bad car accident and then you’re afraid to drive again and you, yeah. You know, you kind of debilitate your life because you, you know, are never driving. You’re, you know, too scared to drive and you can’t get to places and your life’s kind of cut short because of it. So, yeah. So that kinda goes into fear the body taking over instead of the logical mind having a say in this scenario.
Speaker 2: So if we get stuck in fear, we get stuck in our emotional mind, sending those body bodily feelings of a tight chest or heart beating fast, clammy hands when we’re about to approach that situation that was so scary in the past. So in counseling, we’re reconnecting both sides of the brain so we can pull in the logic that yes, this happened before, but it doesn’t mean it’s gonna happen again. And actually it’s unlikely that it will happen again. Yeah. That’s hard to retrain the brain to think that way. And yeah, maybe. I think as counselors do you start with the body. I do a lot of body work. Yeah. Because I think if we can notice what are your triggers? So even in the audience thinking this morning or as you’re driving or listeni
ng from home, what are your triggers? So when does your body start to react?
Speaker 2: That’s a really good thing to be mindful of because before the thoughts are in your head of, Oh no, bad situation or this is scary, your body’s reacting. So you might notice your legs get numb or again, your chest is tight or you might feel nauseous or flutters in your stomach. And so once we realize what’s going on in the body, we realize, Oh, this is a situation that really brings a lot of distress. And if we can deal with the body, if we can calm the body with deep breathing or tapping what have you, your thinking brain comes back on. Yeah. So before you kind of rabbit trail and spiral. Yeah. So if you can catch those initial triggers, then you have more control over actually not going into a fear response. So actually relaxation, breathing, noticing your body. It kind of calms the emotional brain.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So your thinking brain can come online again and really think through the situation. Is there a real threat maybe there maybe you should run. Yeah, that’s right. We don’t want to call them all fears. Now fear is, it’s a wonderful thing actually. It’s like an alarm bell. Yeah. You want, yeah. You need that. That’s what’s keeping us alive a lot of the times. Yeah. Kind of when my heart jumps because the car in front of me breaks really fast, then my body reacts. That’s good because that helped be slam on my break and not, you know, slam into him in front of me. Exactly. Or even meeting kind of toxic people. And you get that, you get that gut feeling. Yeah. I tell a lot of people that’s a good thing to trust sometimes. Yeah. I think people do. They kind of discount that feeling and think, Oh, I’ll give them a chance.
Speaker 2: But I’m like, you’ve learned that feeling previously and so often our gut is correct. Not always, but I think it’s something if you get an uneasy feeling about someone, it’s probably your body saying, Hey, knock, knock, knock, because something’s going on here. Yeah. It has to be a nice balance of emotional and thinking brain working together. Yeah, absolutely. Well, all of this we’ve been talking about fear and kind of adrenaline, the good sides, the bad sides. Um, so I wonder in relation to Halloween, any thoughts on, I don’t know, fear and kind of this spooky month, do you think? You know what I think I, cause I had worked a lot with kids. Yeah. I think that Halloween and the decorations that are put up sometimes can be very frightening and scary for kids and we can’t like, minimize some costumes are really gruesome. Yeah. Um, and you know, I, I’ve heard kids in, in sessions really be afraid of certain movies that parents think is like kind of fun to watch some or you have to make sure things are appropriate.
Speaker 2: That’s, um, I think to what you say with gruesome. Yeah. I’ve even as an adult going through a store and I see the Halloween decorations, I’m kind of, my stomach will be like, Oh, as I look at something and it is very bloody, or just gross looking, like, I don’t want to look at that. It’s unpleasant. Yeah. So for adults sometimes maybe, you know, good advice for parents too to their children. Um, you know, just because it’s not scary to you because you kind of had the adult brain and you know, there’s really no real threat. Um, kids really do get afraid of, of certain things that, you know, Halloween brings, brings about. So I think they even less than us, they don’t have that logical brain and all that life experience to tell them you’re safe, there’s no threat. And so they might be looking around and inside they’re feeling terrorized. Yeah. Halloween is a great time to really teach kids, you know, to conquer their fears or to notice their body, notice their reactions and uh, uh, kinda teach them how to work through it. Yeah, I think it’s a good thing. Absolutely. All right, well, we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be right back. I’m Lindsey Steph in with wellspring on the air.
Speaker 1: Wellspring now offers professional Christian counseling at six locations in Dade County. Therapists are now taking clients at two new locations, one at crossbridge, Miami Springs and Kiva skein for more information, (786) 573-7010 or wellspring miami.org for more information.
Speaker 2: Welcome back. I’m Lindsay. Stuff in with wellspring on the air. I’m here with Yasmin sham Aleut today and we’re talking about fear since we are in the month of October and it’s a spooky month. So it can be fun, but it can also be traumatic. So we’re trying to kind of analyze, you know, for kids and even just as adults are different fear responses and what’s good about fear, um, we’ve talked about it is good to experience fear and conquer it because you do build courage and bravery and you feel that mastery of conquering a fear. So that’s an awesome side of fear when you are kind of moving through it and um, building bravery and then some bad sides of fear of course, when there really is a threat to your safety when something is experienced as trauma. So we’re trying to kind of analyze and, and prepare maybe parents or anyone working with kids this month because we were just talking, you know, sometimes some of the stuff you see the decorations or costumes can be fear provoking for little kids who their brain hasn’t developed to let them know, Hey you’re safe.
Speaker 2: You know, that logical mind saying we’re not really in a threatening situation but they see all this scary stimuli and their little body might freak out. So. Well why don’t you tell us a little more Yasmin just about what’s going on in the body and the mind when we are feeling fear. Yeah. So we talk a lot about the fight or flight response. It’s kind of like an automatic biological response that happens. So really it’s, you know, your heart raises, you get tunnel vision, uh, your stress hormones start to rise. Your body actually like shuts down organs that are not as important. Like your digestive system. Wow. We do this in counseling when we have people kind of relaxing, calm down. We tell them to make saliva in their mouth. Yeah. Cause that’s to stimulate the digestive system to kind of come back online. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That’s good. So you know, those are real things that your body goes through when you feel fear and when you feel like you’re in danger. So just to be aware of that, um, things around you can start to become, um, maybe start to think like negatively about things cause you’re looking for danger. Yeah. Cause your body’s alerting you that could be wrong. Okay. So that’s really important to look at. You know, are you, are you viewing situations that are maybe not in a threatening way? Are you viewing them as negative? Um, and we kinda tackle that a lot in counseling. Yeah. So kind of I guess looking at are these fears rational or not? So am I really going to die if that’s my fear of, we talked earlier about public speaking, the number one fear, but really rationally I’m not going to die. I’m gonna make it through.
Speaker 2: Maybe the fear though is being humiliated. That’s a more, that’s a rational fear. I might stutter or whatever and you know, be embarrassed in front of everyone. Fear of rejection. Yeah. That’s go
od. So kind of noticing. All right, it’s good to note what is your, your trauma response or your fear response. So are you a fighter? Do you fight back? You might feel a lot of energy in your fists who we talked about. The body is very connected to these responses. Um, for someone who’s in flight mode, they’re just escaping like let me get out of here trying to, you know, maybe leave the situation or anything. Go to the bathroom to kinda hide. And then you didn’t mention but the freeze response, I’m a freezer. I know that. So it’s like that deer in the headlights where you know if something startles you or whatever, it’s just kind of like your body is paralyzed and so it’s good to know these responses and then to work on them cause we do, let’s say we’re in a dangerous situation, I want to learn to not freeze cause I want to learn that I need to go into action.
Speaker 2: I might need to get to a safe place or what have you. Yeah, I love that we’re talking about this because maybe people who are listening think fear, you know, and, and the general context, like a bear, you know, now let’s say inward Florida and alligator is approaching you that’s relevant. Yeah. You know, a car accident or things like that. But really fear happens in the most unusual like, and maybe common scenarios we were talking about friendships, relationships, maybe anxiety, right? Anxiety is like low grade fear and fear is when it’s inflated to the point of maybe we’re panicking, we feel like we are in danger. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this happens more often than not. People don’t really realize that their body is in this fight, flight or freeze. Yeah. Um, and I know us as counselors, we kind of alert our clients to what is going on in their bodies and why they’re reacting the way they are.
Speaker 2: It can be very confusing at times. So maybe you don’t think of yourself as a fearful person, but if you get feedback that you’re very high, strong, type a controlling, that’s probably very anxiety type of responses are ways of operating. And so maybe you are avoiding a fear. So a fear of not being successful, a fear of things, unraveling a fear that if I don’t do it, it won’t be done. So we encounter that a lot with clients and we realize, wow, this isn’t just that I’m a little uptight. It’s that I’m actually have a deep core fear of if I don’t do this or if I don’t operate this way, something bad’s going to happen. And that goes to, we were talking about tracing it back to where we learn that fear from. Yeah. Because it is tied to our past and what we experience even.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In social relationships or with parents or close friends. Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. I think a lot of times people think, Oh, there’s no, I want to just deal with the present. But really our present is tied to our past and we got these deep core beliefs and these different fear responses over a year. So we didn’t just wake up all the sudden and have a fear of spiders. Or for me, it’s cockroaches. And I lived in Florida. When I moved back I thought, Oh my gosh, I have to deal with cockroaches again. The cockroach thing is everyone freaks out about it. So it’s like you know you learn it from other people. Like if you’re freaking out I’m going to freak out too. Cause obviously something here is really dangerous and I genuinely get grossed out like nauseous by them and I know I’m like that’s a really extreme response.
Speaker 2: I’m aware of it. I always joke, I’m like I need to talk to my therapist about this. It’s like a phobia now, but I hate them because I just get grossed out but my body’s responding more intensely than really the situation merits. I’m aware of that as a counselor so I kind of been analyzing them like yeah really it’s, it’s a bug and yeah I don’t need to be that grossed out but my body just goes there. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like we get more fearful as we grow up cause sometimes I observe kids, I’m like the playground or something. They have no sense of fear. No, they are jumping around like I didn’t know. No bones are going to be broken here, like, you know, on the monkey bars and with friends. And um, just kinda like this carefree spirit, which I kind of want for myself sometimes.
Speaker 2: I think as adults we experienced so many negative situations in our lives and that causes us to be fearful for the next thing that’s gonna come up. But sometimes it’s unrelated. Yeah, you’re right. And it’s kind of that balance of as an adult not being overly fearful because your brain is fully developed and now you are aware of real danger, real things that could happen. But as a kid they are, they kind of have a sense of adventure that you can achieve again, once you know better. Yeah. And so I kind of, this is a funny thing, I’m in my thirties but I notice now that I am more fearful of things and Oh, if I’m gonna, you know, maybe a roller coaster going hang gliding, things like that. And so every year I make myself do something that scares me. Yeah. Within safe boundaries. Of course, you know, not unreasonable things, but because I kind of joke, I’m like, you get soft as you get older.
Speaker 2: It’s a movement now. Oh yes. He’s, he’s like out there conquering his fears. He was like in a, in a cage, like with shark, you know, shark diving that’s called. Yeah. But he has like a habits of facing his fears. Like the things that fear he fears the most doing them. I like that. Yeah. I don’t know if I want to do the shark thing, but yeah. I like the idea of, yeah. Not letting things that scare you stop you from living. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You’re right. Some things are we feel fear, but we really don’t need to. They’re not life threatening. They’re not unsafe. We’re just, we have that fear of body response. We want to fight, flight or freeze. All right, so we just have a couple minutes before we wrap up. So, um, Yasmine, what can people do if they notice I am kind of a fearful person or, you know, anxiety and fear are a part of my daily or weekly life.
Speaker 2: That’s great. The fact that you notice it first. You know, we were talking a lot about noticing your thoughts. You know what I love to tell clients is like, is this an actual threat? And really analyzing your environment and noticing, am I really in danger? Is this just something that I’ve learned throughout the years or I’ve picked up along the way? And really if it’s still something that sticks with you, maybe, maybe counseling would be a good thing to kind of work through it and process it more. Yeah. Especially maybe two. It’s those things that have been themes. Yeah. You know, this was always scary or paired with some fearful stimuli in my life. So that’s kind of deep seated and sometimes it’s just a onetime event. Like I had a bad experience being chased by a dog and now someone’s fearful of dogs. And usually we use EMDR.
Speaker 2: It’s a trauma therapy and in like one to three sessions, sometimes those things can be resolved. Absolutely incredible. Yeah. So we’re big proponents and have, we do our own EMDR work. We’re big believers, practice what we preach. So, um, I want to give that encouragement. Sometimes people think all this is a fear I’ve always had. It won’t go away. But I’ve had clients who have been fearful with social anxiety, very severe driving anxiety, health anxiety, and now they h
ave found freedom from those things. So yeah, definitely counseling. And sometimes there’s support groups too. If you’ve been through something that is genuinely scary, you know, and maybe you’re still working through it and you need that community and to relate and talk with other people who have been through something similar that can be super helpful. Yeah. Dunning know your fear. Yeah. So while we encourage you to have a great fall month, enjoy October, yeah, enjoy maybe some candy or whatever, but just be mindful of, um, if the movies or the TV shows, if things are themed around Halloween and it is giving you or your kids some extra body response, just be mindful of that this month because it is, it’s, you know, the world can be scary anyway, but there’s just extra stuff going on.
Speaker 2: This like to just add some more in there. Yeah. Or worthy excitement. Exactly. We call it excitement. So yeah, just notice. Noticing your kids. Is this fear or is this just that fun, exciting adrenaline rush? All right. Is fun. Yeah. I enjoy talking about this. Thanks for being with me today. Yes, man. I love, she’s one of my favorite guests to have. We’ll we’ll, we’re gonna wrap up for today on Lindsey stuff in with wellspring on the air because hearts and minds matter
